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I got tired of asking my family to download yet another app. Went iPhone at this point.
How many apps did you ask them to download?
Personally, I only asked for this one, and everyone who is of importance to me chose to do it.
How do we know signal isn’t also run by a techbro who just wants our data?
I don’t think that the founders are bad people. If you look at their history of work, they have done enormous amounts of work in the computer security sector. The founder, however, did run a cloud based WPA cracking service.
Meredith Whitaker, who is the president, used to work at Google doing research for “issues related to net neutrality measurement, privacy, security, and the social consequences of artificial intelligence”.
In 2018 she then staged walkouts at Google over concerns of sexual misconduct and citizen surveillance.
The people on Signal’s board seem to be trustworthy people with a pretty airtight background. You have to worry more about the mobile operating system compromising you than do you about Signal.
Does it really matter who made it if you can see the source code? You don’t have to trust them.
That’s kind of a core tenet of libre/open software, innit? Independently verifiable software that you can change at your pleasure.
Can you though? Can I build the apk myself and use their services?
Yes, you can use their exact build environment straight from GitHub. You can also use Molly.im which is another app that i think is a fork? Im still investigating it.
TIL I have no family I care to keep in touch with and I have no friends.
I will use the opportunity to remind that Signal is operated by a non-profit in the jurisdiction called “the US”. This could have implications.
A somewhat more anarchist option might be TOX. There is no single client, TOX is a protocol, you can choose from half a dozen clients. I personally use qTox.
Upside: no phone number required. No questions asked.
Downside: no servers to store and forward messages. You can talk if both parties are online.
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You can use Signal with a different client. Signal being operated within the US has no effect. As of now the jurisdictions that I know of to be worried about are:
Sweden, where a law is proposed to add an encryption backdoor
The EU, where leadership is pushing for an encryption backdoor
France arrested the founder of Telegram for using end to end encryption in Telegram
Australia in 2018 passed a law that enabled the government to require communications platforms add a backdoor for government decryption. The Director of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) said that “privacy is important but not absolute”. Which has the same vibes as “this is not about human rights, this is about human life.”
WhatsApp was previously suspended in Brazil for refusing to hand over decrypted messages.
China and Russia are very obvious problems. Here’s an easy one of many examples
The White House both in Trump’s first term and in Biden’s presidency were pro-encryption. Signal and Tor were US government funded projects. That’s not to say the US is great on encryption, and there have been laws in the past that did/were proposed to limit it. But, as of now, it seems that the US is (edit: one of) the most hospitable jurisdictions for encrypted messaging non-profits.
BTW, I’m not saying using Tox is bad, or that Signal is good, I’m just talking about the US jurisdiction part.
You can use Signal with a different client.
Can you advise, which one would be a good one? Because I actually use Signal too, it’s just misbehaving a lot recently.
I have had endless difficulties with Signal forcing upgrades on me and requiring to sign in on the phone, under threat of deactivating my account (I use it on a PC).
I’ve never used any, but Molly seems well liked
Well yeah we could also use Briar or whatever… but would your grandma?
i’ve only managed to get some of my fam to move over to signal. the other half full on refused
Hell yeah. Tox continues to rock. If anyone wants to chat, HMU, here’s my key:
fdd7005639c618263ab2eedab974f7576c7c0ded6217eed9e9dc0344c622e72aeef7055f8b4d
Not sure if you’re actually sincere or are sarcastically making fun of Tox’s onboarding. That’s a long key.
Thank you for telling me. I am being sincere: https://h0p3.nekoweb.org/#Contact h0p3
They’re probably not joking, TOX IDs are like that. :) Mine is:
CA9A4C1968AA38CC93CB32F31F3682AB897ABA42C90E6F0EA5E1FB541930FD64138B4CC09AD*
(*the number opposite to the first is the number that comes after one, to hinder any spam bots)
I would like nothing more, but so few of my contact group are willing to switch away… despite all of Meta’s bullshit. I resent being made to use it whilst their AI/ads encroach further and further.
I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they’ve never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn’t care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can’t switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I’d just be alone there. What’s the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they’re not gonna switch now.
Well, just an anecdote:
I simply deleted my WhatsApp and moved to signal. Just did it.
People installed the app, at least the ones that cared about staying in touch. Which was most everyone I cared about staying in touch with. A few of my friend groups also moved the group chat to signal, though all of them do have other ones with the people who didn’t care enough to move too, but I hear it isn’t that big a deal, they had multiple groups before and will have in future, doesn’t really feel like any extra hassle they say.
It’s been fine. No problems. I’ve had more trouble trying to explain to my extended family why I’m no longer posting on instagram. Those I never had in WhatsApp either back in the day, so they “stayed in touch” by watching my pictures I suppose. But I just consistently tell people they can reach me always via signal or plain old sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most, but I don’t really care enough, I’ve got so much going on already that it’s more of a blessing that I don’t have to be involved in every conversation or meme sharing or whatever.
It really gets so easy after simply switching. Just do it and that’s that. The people worth anything come with you, it’s just another app and another group chat or personal chat. Most already have discord and the meta messenger whatever its name is these days anyway. I know zero people with only one messenger/chat app and unsplintered groups across them. It’s not a big chore, and if it is, there’s always sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most
I don’t mind missing out on some things, but I would mind missing out on literally all of the things. Everyone is on WhatsApp and trying to convince people to switch to a different app when, from their perspective, their current app has over 99% uptime, their kids, their family, their extended family, their friends, all are on WhatsApp. Its the same for me, its everyone. Its just a different situation in Europe.
Yep. I know the details. I’m tech savvy enough, but I use what my contacts use, and I’m not leaving WhatsApp. Same goes for youtube. The content I consume is there. There is no suitable alternative until the content creators switch. It’s not really about the technology at all.
Just ditch WhatsApp. Don’t give in to social pressure to install malware on your phone
There’s nobody on Signal, that’s the problem. If I want to miss out on all of my group conversations, work conversations, messages between myself and others, then yeah, I can switch. But if I want to receive any messages at all, I have to keep WhatsApp installed.
The problem is there’s no one on signal that I want to talk to. So “just ditch the app” isn’t actually helpful.
WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone
Is this really the case?
Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’m in the northeast US, and nearly everyone I know uses Facebook Messenger as their main form of communication, even people who don’t touch Facebook at all. I hate Messenger for the same reasons that people hate WhatsApp, but I still have to use it because my entire social circle does. If I want to message someone outside Messenger without giving my phone number out, I use my Google Voice number.
I’ve only ever used WhatsApp to talk to work contacts overseas, and I’ve only ever used Signal to talk to paranoid drug dealers, which is a use case that’s mostly been replaced by Telegram now.
In my region in Europe, it really is. EVERYONE uses WhatsApp. I’m not sure the last time I saw someone use SMS, its all WhatsApp. iOS, Android, its all there.
Outside of North America, most other countries’ use WhatsApp as a choice for personal and business uses is WhatsApp. Rest are mostly dominated by Facebook messenger. Excluding China which has WeChat domestically.
How Meta was ever allowed to buy WhatsApp without triggering anti-trust laws is beyond me.
Many of my European and South American friends are having a hard time because that’s where all their families and friends back home are, and it’s hard to get them to use something new, especially the older folks.
How Meta was ever allowed to buy WhatsApp without triggering anti-trust laws is beyond me
It was still called Facebook when they bought it.
Wish more of my contact list would switch over to Signal. It’s nearly the same. I don’t see why it’s so hard for some people to just start using Signal instead of WhatsApp.
Oh well.
Because people are beyond stupid. “i dont want to download another app” - while having an app for almost every other store and bullshit game and whatever
I think what they really mean is “I don’t want another account”.
Hell I’ve been getting rid of accounts lately. Feels good.
It’s super cathartic, I agree. Feels extra good when it’s big tech and fascist-owned as well.
“But why, everyone is on WhatsApp”, and also a lot of businesses. “Privacy? I’ve got nothing to hide, what are they gonna do eith my info?”
My dad won’t switch from Facebook messenger so now we have to talk via unencrypted sms
I tried switching my family over, but being unable to install it on a second device or tablet was a deal breaker.
groups/channels?
After Trump was elected and inaugurated, Signal has finally been gaining some steam here in the Netherlands.
It’s still an American company, so it’s not ideal. But it’s still significantly better better than letting a tech giant like Facebook have control over the most commonly used chat app.
WhatsApp needs to go and Signal is the most likely way in which we can achieve that. We can worry about the American elephant in the room later.
Signal is based in America but it’s a non profit organization, not a company. Important difference
But being based in the United States it is still subject to American laws, and that comes with the risk of potential American spying and embargoes. Software from any American entity (be it coorporation or non-profit) comes with that risk.
There is threema, a Swiss messenger that gained some popularity earlier since they had end to end encryption before whatsapp.
Unfortunately the source code is not open (even though they do get annual audits with public reports), and the client costs 3 EUR or something (once).
Yeah, but Threema has basically no momentum behind it at all at this point.
I’m putting my social capital behind the option that currently stands the most chance of beating out WhatsappThreema has a pretty big momentum in some countries.
Then by all means keep that momentum going.
I’m just looking at this from a Dutch perspective, where Signal is seeing by far the most growth.You can help making it stronger. That’s what I did in Germany: if people want to contact me, I usually give them my Threema ID first, everything else comes later.
But my goal is not to move to Threema, my goal is to move away from Whatsapp.
Signal fits the bill while expending far less social capital convincing people to use it.
Which?
Switzerland. ;-)
And Switzerlands records in terms of privacy sadly is far worse than most people think - even with the last attack being repelled.
Matrix (preferably on a non-matrix.org instance) currently is the preferable non US and privacy friendly way.
I don’t know - this hype about Matrix reminds me of XMPP which was similarly popular a decade ago. Today, nobody even remembers it anymore.
Which hype? Matrix as a protocol is used for a decade now, especially by various big governments (French, Luxembourg and German governmental messenger, various German states, German and Polish armed forces, German healthcare messenger, various smaller projects in Latin America), is bridgeable (I currently have it bridged to Whatsapp and Signal amongst others) but I really don’t see a hype - on the contrary I only see people predicting me the immediate apocalypse of Matrix for 5 years now, currently due to matrix.org (one of a hundred instances) introducing a premium account model for the most cost intensive (heavily media sharing)users. (See below for that).
Pepperidge farm remembers, and so do I. Lots of people I know use XMPP (Cheogram, Dino, etc).
Until Facebook buys them like they did with WhatsApp…?
They also offer Threema Libre on F-Droid for all us folks who degoogled their phone
FYI, while Threema front-end clients (apps) are open-source (and offer reproducible builds, which is surprisingly uncommon in open-source land), the server component, though supposedly audited, remains closed-source.
EDIT: for comparison, the Signal server code is mostly open source, but things like the spam filter are closed.
Thanks.
And I didn’t know Signal had spam filters. It makes sense to not make that open source.
In my circle of 20 there has only been one instance of spam over several years. 3 of us got the same message.
Sadly many still don’t want to switch. My most active chats are in signal now but the large majority of chats are still on whatsapp
If you leave WhatsApp, your chats will usually follow.
Not all of them.
I have a non-official chat group with some colleagues, and a chat group for the neighbourhood that are not likely moving just because I am refusing to use Whatsapp. It would just result in me missing out on those chat groups.
Currently I just have both installed, and that is also how I try to convince people to install and try out Signal.
America is not a monolith. Signal’s developers are very much aware of the risks of operating there and probably already have several escape plans given recent developments. I also think five-eyes probably has access but getting it might be computationally expensive.
I like Signal. I even got all my close friends and family on it, specifically to message me because I won’t use whatsapp. The PIN reminders are annoying it enough to be legitimately holding it back from mass appeal imho
Turn them off
The fact that it’s opt-out is already a reason to push people away from the app
I think it was meant as a security feature in case someone picked up your unlocked phone. It perhaps someone cracked your front screen passcode. I know if you forget your password and have to reset it you lose all previous conversations. It’s very secure this way. Bit of a pain… but secure.
That’s not even what it is lol.
And as the other commenter alluded to, defaults matter. You’re not replacing the thing everyone is already using by pitching “here’s an alternative that is better in ways which don’t affect your usage at all, and also you have to dig into the settings to turn off the optional daily popups”
They are monthly not daily popups. They are daily at the start kust to make sure you memorize your PIN, then they peter off.
However if you ignore a monthly one then it doesn’t disturb you until the next monthly reminder. What is the point of a PIN if it can be ignored?
Yeah someone who cares enough about security to switch to Signal in the first place will be willing to go into the settings to get everything just the way they like it, but everybody else will only keep the app if it doesn’t bug them.
SimpleX as well!
IMO the best on-boarding I have seen in a chat app. Just scan each other’s QR codes or click a link. No account management because ID is unique to each conversation.
Signal and WhatsApp need a phone number, Matrix/Element is needlessly messy, XMPP/Conversations is sensible IIRC (ID + password)
Just got the app. Really like the idea!
The founder of SimpleX is out of his mind. Check yourself: https://xcancel.com/epoberezkin
It’s ethical because it runs on donations and has a non-profit business model.
Meta likely spends at least $1 billion a year running WhatsApp.
Please donate to Signal if you use it.
I will switch to signal when I can avoid installing stuff on bunch of my devices. Until web version is available, sorry it hard for me to switch and for me to convince other people to switch.
Ya it’d be better if it didn’t require a phone number but it’s a solid start as it’s build up a user base over the past decade. Matrix is good but I know far less people that use it and it’ll be a long time of growing with nerdy/geeky communities before it starts getting more mainstream users
signal requires a phone number and won’t even allow you to send sms to those that aren’t on signal.
its better, but still not great.
It used to function as a fallback SMS/MMS messenger (like how iMessage does) but when Google started moving to convert Android from SMS/MMS to RCS Signal made the hard decision to cut the fallback functionality rather than follow Google’s new framework.
I personally hope once the dust settles Signal designs a RCS engine and restores the fallback functionality.
Yeah killing the sms function was basically a deal breaker for me, no matter how much I tried I could only get three people to use Signal, the rest were all sms. When the sms feature was removed 2 of the 3 dropped Signal completely, so now the only person I know who still uses it is my mom and even she still flips back and forth between Signal and Google messages when texting me.
I still have Signal on my phone and suggest it people when they ask how to contact me, but everyone just wants to text my phone number.
If you need to send sms to someone not on signal, why not just send them an sms
if they need my phone number to have an account anyway, they can offer both.
i dont need more apps that do the same thing. i need less.
It’s arguably a very bad idea for a secure messenger to also provide an SMS interface, since those are basically cleartext
exactly. so I’m wondering what the purpose is for its need.
(edit: apologies- the phone number. needing the phone number.)
What? You use a secure messenger to send secure messages. It doesn’t make sense for a secure messenger to offer sending insecure messages (SMS).
Edit: oh, you’re probably referring to why it requires a phone number. This seems to be due to abuse/spam prevention, as otherwise creating new accounts to spam people with is basically free.
using the phone number is still a pretty unnecessary risk, imho.
there’s no real need for it any longer.
Do you have a better approach to prevent spam in mind? Without a barrier of entry it becomes a serious issue.
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